How to Build a Viral Digital Marketing Campaign

www.fanaticsmedia.com

Guests: Natalie Ebel and Chad Warren

Here's what you'll learn:

1. How Do You Come Up with the Ideas for Your Campaigns?
2. Once You’ve Decided on a Campaign, How Do You Make Sure the Execution is Organized and Effective?
3. What Else Do You Do to Make Sure that Your Campaign Reaches Your Target Audience and Has Maximum Potential to Go Viral?

The complete article can be found here: http://www.fanaticsmedia.com/how-to-build-a-viral-digital-marketing-campaign/

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Closed Caption:

alright today we are going to talk about
viral digital marketing campaign
campaigns
today we're gonna talk with Chad worn
when he shows up but Natalie and I will
have plenty of information to share
about how we run viral marketing
campaigns at fanatics media and what she
does in the nonprofit space I can't wait
to hear what she's doing because it's so
important I think to get people
interested in the nonprofits and what
you're doing especially in some of the
countries that you're doing it in and
I'm sure you've got a limited budget
whereas we probably operate for a much
bigger budget with our clients
I'm so let's get started on mark for
Delmon managing partner fanatics media
very excited about today's show again
and as a reminder we're really about how
to content not just fluffy conversations
that take place if you have any
questions for Natalie or myself for when
Chad when he joins just on the
right-hand side you get so you can just
hit / you ask the question it will show
up on the left-hand side and we'll do
our best to answer it and if Chad
doesn't show up we're going to start
throwing a lot of people into this blab
with us so if you want to talk to either
one of us uh they will start answering
those questions life please subscribe to
Natalie myself give props when they're
answering questions you like and let me
give you a little background on Natalie
when Chad shows up we'll give him give
you a little background on him so
natalie is currently the head of
marketing at pencils of promise and
innovated kind of an innovative for
purpose nonprofit organization at that
is providing quality education
developing world and based on the
statistics that I've seen I got a lot of
good friends that are studying this what
you're doing and what about a lot of
other people are doing are certainly
working when you look at the stats
overall would you agree with that
Natalie highway and you know that's the
goal i think something that makes
properly unique in our approach is we
pilot a lot of the things and test them
and see if they work and then move
forward so our ultimate goal here
pencils of promise is literacy there's
250 million kids the lack basic reading
and writing skills and our ultimate goal
is to ensure literacy and all the
schools where we work
ok fantastic it looks like Chad's trying
to join here so chatter either
ok I know he's trying at least chat if
you can hear us
you can we might have to reboot your
browser and try again but Natalie we're
gonna we're gonna jump right in
hey and so my the first topic is what
has been the most successful campaign
that you've worked on and I have to and
i define success by different ways the
first one all dive into is a campaign
that we ran last year on called
givingtuesday I don't know if you're
familiar with it falls after Black
Friday and Cyber Monday and then the
charity today is givingtuesday so um how
we approached it we knew that every
other NGO would be trying to make the
loudest noise on social so we really
thought opposite really
what is everyone else going to do they
are going to want to ask people for
money so we kind of flipped that and we
said we know our users we have a really
big millennial halloween um and we
empower them with their voice so through
that campaign we were able to get 50,000
retweet and one day and we travel
worldwide built us to school than a day
and how we did that we got a corporate
hardening loci they make these really
amazing bracelets actually left my home
today
um but they donated a dollar for every
tweet and we kept it really simple on
all of our successful campaigns have
really liked grounded with simplicity
um so again our audiences young
Millennials you know that they don't
have a ton of money to give so we
empower them for every retweet loci will
donate a dollar to build a school and
when we know really a half-life of the
tweet is it's now about 28 minutes so we
got a whole bunch of influencers to keep
promoting the week throughout the day
and got some 50,000 so it was a really
successful campaign the takeaway that
was fascinating to meet Bill and Melinda
Gates Foundation did an analysis on
givingtuesday and so that we were the
most talked-about nonprofit on
givingtuesday and we had more chatter
than Ellen DeGeneres Kardashian ariana
grande thing I don't know how our
audience did it but we knew
speak to them when you speak to them and
what to get them to really empower
themselves so it was congratulations
we're going to dive into that campaign a
lot more and now Chad are your you're on
a show my show you I can can you speak
for us for just a sec see if we can hear
your audio yeah absolutely i'm a great
challenge tonight
well I've had them recently this is the
first time i think in the last four
weeks where I haven't so I understand
what you're going through chat we just
got started
I'm gonna make a quick intro of Chad
Chad warranty leads to social media for
adobes digital marketing business unit
yes a very diverse marketing background
as i do you build strategies for brands
including walt disney parks and resorts
resorts best buy microsoft and leave
highs quite a diverse background which
is good because if you're going to have
some great perspectives for us as we go
forward so Chad the first question we
have and just keep in mind about how to
content but the first question we have
is what has been the most successful
campaign that you've worked on I know
you probably many but the one that just
immediately comes to mind and yeah i
think the one that immediately comes to
mind and maybe its top of mind because
its more recent as we are
adobe has a large campaign and I have
the experience that adobe when i get on
airplanes the downside work for w days I
go photoshop you guys do photoshop but
we have this entirely other line of
business called the adobe marketing
cloud and we have a big campaign in
market this helping to drive awareness
for for that suite of products and focus
around this concept called do you know
your market is doing this essentially
what highlights things that are
relatable to marketers everywhere about
just things that they see in their own
organizations or another organizations
that are kind of variables are kind of
the steps that people make its kind of
bad marketing if you will and and we had
a recent and what we've been putting out
a series of videos on these we are
recent 1i where we kind of highlight the
exploits of
of this of this energy drink brand that
that we made up called astro boost and
Astro boost you know i won't go into too
much detail but after Bruce does some
let's just say they make some mix
missteps that will be very relevant to a
lot of marketers and as a way to kind of
further drive through that . and also
pick up discussion and get people kind
of talking about these things that are
seeing all the time again in their own
organization others we decide what
better way to kind of bring the concept
to life and really land than to actually
bring this kind of phone energy drink
too lifelike created and real-life so we
actually created a stroke boosts the
energy drink
these are really for real and that we
that we created and that you know they
they actually contain probably something
that's not very good for you in the butt
anywhere and we went to advertising week
this week where a lot of our audiences
and a lot of people who would you know
what really kind of understand we're
trying to do and we mobilize the team of
people are essentially composing as this
brand attributes we gave away thousands
and thousands of cans of astro boost we
have taste tests on the street and all
these things but all throughout have
this ongoing thread of of kind of
prompting people to let people know that
the new kind of something was a little
bit off about it and that prompted them
to kind of well what is this about that
we want to explore more and and what it
ended up driving is a lot of people to
kind of further that exploration kind of
discovered that adobe was behind this
and making and and sending this message
really kind of asking questions do you
really know what your marketing is doing
you know because here where we as a
brand are here to help you do that it
ended up and I'm especially in a very
noisy environment for those of you have
been to advertising we can know it's in
you know it's in manhattan on there's a
ton of huge brands like Google and
Facebook there that are speaking and
promoting and we were we were just
extremely impressed with the drill the
number one share voice of that event and
drove a tremendous amount of social
conversation
I'm discussion it was mentioned actually
within a couple of panels on the stage
as a relatable examples where people
were talking about things and marketing
that they were doing and which is
something that we're really proud of I'm
both as an example of something you know
viral for the sake of better word but
also is an integrated campaign where we
have various different elements that all
that into one overall concept
ok actually and we're going to get into
that but my biggest question is did you
brew this energy drink at home where
hostage
I just get hold of the non-linearity it
was it is uh I like to say yes but the
dirty secret is we we actually found we
found a company that was willing to to
make it for us and-and and we kind of
built this little mini browned around it
and so they brewed it themselves and as
far as i know it is FDA approved and so
that's the good news but uh but it was
making my way seem to enjoy how many did
you give away we gave away i'm close to
10,000 can't have ya know if you could
only get two should retail distributors
you might actually could make a business
out of that cell so here is my son you
yeah exactly good alright so those are
excellent i'd like to bring up one that
we did it was called the retiree next
door was kind of play on The Millionaire
Next Door a part part of this was locked
but we got a bunch of influencers over
25 them to write about uh not only what
they do for retirement but what when we
did a survey about where retirees do
next door and generate about five
million views overall cross the campaign
and tens of thousands of websites sign
ups and as we go through this list of
things that we're going to discuss today
on how we did that I think I think you
that are watching alice be pretty
interested in how we did this basically
in a bootstrap budget but our next topic
and and I let's start with the Natalie
again is how did you come up with the
ideas or how do you come up with the
ideas for your digital marketing
campaigns I mean you're a non-profit
let's just emphasize that
against you don't have a big budget that
maybe adobe does our clients do so how
do you come up with the ideas is it
looking at it from a financial
perspective first or is it let's just
explore universe of ideas and then start
from there
yeah my background isn't in nonprofits I
never honestly thought I would work for
a non-profit but really what you need a
pop is um opting for pencils of promise
is the organization's ability to
storytelling away that regular brands
and I came from publishing and watching
magazine publishing and I think that
it's really important marketing is
marketing across all industries you have
to approach it in the same way what's
our goal you have to get scrappy with it
i think the greatest part about being a
non-profit and when approaching thing
people rarely say no like people always
listen see how they can help and we're
pretty scrappy about the way we work
um we aren't afraid to ask people what
they can contribute but really a lot of
our marketing campaigns are little lift
they don't take a lot of money and we
look at organizational goals so for
example last year our goal is to let all
of our supporters know that you know
literacy has been very important for
pencils of promise
historically everyone who has slowly
organization so we really rallied our
supporters around one day which was
International Literacy day so we
combined offline activations we lit up
the Empire State Building like a pencil
with l king uh and we had various
activations throughout the day that rope
to online shatter so what we've seen
with our campaigns you need to have a
time period where it's concentrated oh
so that just drive some urgency with our
supporters whether it's a day or a week
we've seen the mess success within 24
hour periods but we really approach it
like that what we want to accomplish
let's set a goal to get it done and
windows that need to happen and in the
lining with International Literacy day
with you trust in the Empire State
Building I great how did you come up
with the ideas for that campaign the one
that you started with originally amazed
it everyone around a whiteboard how did
you come up with the ideas be honest
it's just we have a team of about four
it's five now on the marketing team
um
in the first example he was giving
Tuesday just all of us sitting in a real
what is everyone else doing it like we
can't do that there's no way that where
we aren't the biggest NGO out there but
what is our strength our strength of
social media so how do we empower our
audience and we have quite a few Jen's
ears that support us and those people
were really rally behind an idea if we
give it all
keep it simple given gratification and
get them urgency and really it was just
all of us sitting in a room and I didn't
think of it till a week before so you
know I boys and last-minute planning but
really can't force creativity the ideas
just slow when when I think that there's
an emergency at least on our ends that
are you thinking ahead of time you know
how do we make this is viral as possible
you thinking through that when you're
coming up with your ideas or is that not
on the table at that point
yeah i think with every big campaign
social is kind of sweet spot for us so
it's always handy trends who can be
involved we have quite a few influencers
that support pencils of promise so can
they be involved that day what time do
we need a time everything so definitely
that's always a component of it
ok what we're going to really dive into
that especially the influence apart in
just a minute
so Chad obviously you're a little
different situation you're probably a
very similar situation to me you've got
adobe that you can work with that make
you know to put some real muscle behind
these things but how does the adobe team
come up with the ideas for their
campaigns you know what to walk me
through that kind of process
yeah so well first of all we we have
bowl an internal group of people that we
solicited internally I mean it to your
point I mean we do have the benefit of
having a large organization that we can
tap and we have a group of people that
we we bring together and they're not
necessarily the social experts or you
know the you know that the creative
director whoever it is we have a number
of people who want to be involved in
coming up with ideas because we kind of
recognized as I think a lot of people do
that good ideas come from anywhere and
so we do is we structure in addition to
having you know some agency partners
that we work with that have good
creative talent we know that there's
good creative talent there we have I
think generally our best ideas you know
sincerely speaking come from just anyone
and everyone in fact what we started to
mobilize it in addition to having these
cross-functional different people and
they don't even have to be within
marketing attend our different
brainstorms for upcoming campaigns we
started to incentivize them by basically
saying like hey you know you come up
with an idea we mobilize it will give
you some kind of mobile will find a way
to give you some kind of bonus you get a
little bit of a kick back if you're an
employee whether you're in PR or you
know email marketing or product
management or whatever we're just
gathering ideas and and on and again we
do have in addition to that we can
breathe our agency teams one thing I
think is interesting about noting there
in terms of payment processing approach
is on
I know in the past you know we kind of
got into things saying like yeah we need
a social agency we need an agency who's
really really good at social stuff and
what we found i think is as more and
more people are finding is that that you
know there is no i'm not even sure if
there is really such thing and a pure
sense it's it's I mean really you know
there are a lot of you know smart
thinkers and creative thinkers out there
that just can kind of get outside your
problem but they don't but you know
labeling as social we haven't found that
that's actually given us any kind of
tangible benefit i'm beyond that from a
process and approached and . we always
like to go into our different campaigns
and our process with kind of level
setting around a handful of ideas and
and and there are there's a handful of
them but the key ones just to kind of
keep it simple are our number one is
just that is keeping things simple as
you know ideas if you can't explain it
you know on the elevator ride down or
you know are on your way out of the
building with someone else without
someone understanding it then you know
it's not worth doing the other is we
talked about like how is it evoke
emotion like surprise delight joy
empathy and things like that you know
cause my
getting is obviously a great example of
that and then and then the other one
that we always really trying keyon and
this is a kind of generally a marketing
approach for us here in adobe is what we
like to call inspired by now
in other words what is happening today
in the world that makes it right for
this thing to happen and I think that
that's another big key so I was thinking
about like you know it's like how does
this relate and there's a fine line
right because I'm I kind of cringe
sometimes when I see and I think is we
all do
I you know irrelevant attempts to kind
of insert and yourself and culture and
so I'm you know like like what i like to
call culture jacking and so like we try
to draw this fine line is like where are
the relevant opportunities you know for
adobe to kind of step in and have
something to say where we can be a voice
of authority or relevant but is also
related to kind of what's happening
culturally and any with trans and things
like that in the market are you guys
looking at any voice of the customer
data or personas and kind of overlaying
your campaigns with those people in mind
or absolute conviction
no absolutely i mean and again I mean
that's maybe one of the benefits of the
large company with it with a relatively
wealthy para ello my kind of marketing
approaches we we both have marketing
personas we have also a lot of research
on those and and are talking to those to
those individuals bulls and you know in
a variety of different ways with because
we have a research team that helps us do
that and and so that helps kind of
understand like this
do you know your marketing is doing
campaign it's one of the things that
it's it's it's that we're doing is we're
obviously going and kind of poking fun
ride at these kind of variables in this
steps that marketers make all the time
and there's kind of a fine line you have
to draw their right because you also
have to really nail the person that
you're talking to
otherwise it just either goes over
somebody's head or the point is Miss but
then he also have to be sensitive and
saying that that they were not really
trying to make fun of our customers our
perspective
summers although one of the insights
there's that that we found is that
especially you know this is I think it's
relevant to a broader conversation about
what works virally and social is this
notion is that when we kind of poke fun
things and levity what I think that
we've discovered is is that when you see
something that looks familiar
you never think that it's you right it's
it's always somebody else's doing that I
would never do that when sometimes
unfortunately it is actually that that
is exhibits that behavior
okay great answer Natalie so once you've
decided on the campaign that you're
going to run or campaigns as a
non-profit is you know I know I want to
keep emphasizing this because there's a
lot of the criticism i get is I talk
about big companies a lot not small
companies so how do you make sure that
the execution of these campaigns is
organized and ultimately effective
are there certain tools you're using
processes that you have in place
workflows kind of walk us through how
you ensure that the campaign once the
idea has been figured out while you want
through and made sure that the big the
campaign's executed well because the
number one thing that we see when we
serve a small businesses is their
inability to execute because they don't
have the right systems processes and
people in place
uh well luckily I think that were pretty
scrappy team and usually once we can
sexualize the campaign on the first
question for me is you can we partner
with to help elevate our campaign uh so
first its lining up corporate partners a
brand partners super International
Literacy day because literacy with focus
we partnered with pocket I'm gonna know
if you're familiar with them with their
an app where you can read it later i
love it all the time or subway they
promote literacy of this skin there a
daily newsletter and they partner with
us too as well as yeah kid president use
an online personality and then New York
on her which was a helicopter ride it
takes you up in here and they shot the
empire state building so I think um you
know just the outlook the hardest thing
to lock down a partner to help elevate
it that's usually her
first and second the communication plan
oh and the messaging that emails which
are always kind of in tandem with our
social but usually it's planning those
things first and luckily some very
organized people here on the marketing
to even we also use Salesforce for
project management tool is task grade so
I get emails every morning at
seven-thirty telling me everything I
haven't done so that's always a good
reminder and that just a good project
manager here
well you sure you brought the number of
things I want to get a little bit more
and you line up a partner who's making
that call what's the pitch
it's me I you know usually it's just the
marketing team in a room like hey guys
what's our goal for this campaign
well it's literacy what are grants that
we'd be proud to be associated with that
you know will elevate one another's
platforms are and you know i think the
batter out that NGOs it is that were
always asking for things that it doesn't
always have to be a monetary gifts like
the brand alignment is just as important
for me
so being aligned with the skin and being
exposed to all of their readers and sing
with pocket they featured our
International Literacy a piece to their
entire audience just making sure there's
alignment and it really needs to be a
true partnership we're like this is the
value that we can bring you and here's
the value and historically we have
certain thresholds even for our social
media where we've been able to monetize
it sweet so usually with most corporate
partners it's about $25,000 horrible
about you on social media so it's been a
really a useful tool to just help
monetize our our sacred social following
well let me use an example you brought
the skin
what is the value to them that you're
telling them hey if you partner with us
this is what you get out of it what he
was what are you saying
so we offered them placement on our
website we offer them a post on
Instagram we actually both were at the
NASDAQ and ring the opening bell
together for a national literacy day
which is great co-promotion throat uh
and then we spoke about them
tlk empire state building for us so it's
just more exposure to our audience even
though we do speak to this same i think
really millennial route we just go to
some value from it
ok I Chad so different perspective large
company adobe makes tools to help you
manage the process of these campaigns so
can you walk us through what you do once
a campaign has been decided on and
approved what happens next
yeah I mean I mean I hated you know I i
hate to have not like a really super
sexy you know answer this I'd like to
say there's there's some secret sauce to
it but the reality is we put you knowing
you know a lot of these campaigns you
know it's it's especially social
campaigns where you're pulling off some
experiential or things like that you
know they have as i'm sure you know it's
like have so many moving pieces to them
and so we just put this massive point of
emphasis on making sure that I'm we're
taking the time to make sure that we're
mapping out kind of all the different
work and that have a very very strong
cadence of communication throughout the
process and and I you know unfortunately
i'm not you know I don't feel like I
need more meetings in my life I don't
want more meetings i work at a large
company we were already ended with that
but we're finding is that having very
very kind of frequent scrums as we kind
of loosely refer to them on these
campaigns and we're looking at and and
and really you know documenting I mean
we don't go as far as you know I don't
always go as far as gantt charts and
fancy stuff like that but I mean you
know a spreadsheet and some elbow grease
ride in a good documented project plan
and then very very frequent um again hi
hot high point that business on in
person communication where possible just
to make sure that we're kind of signing
off on all the right pieces because it
never surprises me with the number of
these campaigns that we r on that you
know they're there is every time you
think you've got everything nailed
there's always things that
come down at the end where its level we
have a handle that we need to take care
of that and so it's just keeping that
kind of dream of communication and you
know keeping things document and
everybody looped and just just seems to
kind of do the job you know
yeah and I haven't seen Natalie's to
life and i think i look at that but we
use Basecamp and google docs primarily
to manage everything that we do Google
Docs is very flexible and the client
could see it we can see it so we need
tools at both the client and us can work
on and the base camp google docs thing
is a pretty good strategy we I wouldn't
call it best in class but in order to
get best-in-class I haven't seen a tool
that brings the client in and us and at
the same time besides the two that i
just mentioned that that we like anyway
so if you've got any ideas please put on
the columns on the one on the right hand
side so I generally like it's not really
the chad reed is from you and I find
them so it really helpful during
campaigns you know especially in the
French time like the two weeks leading
up to it and we actually do mornings
from here the leadership team and it's
always just helpful to know what all
four departments have going on so I
really actually prefer in person more
than online o.o just echoing you scrubs
been really helpful that I i agree
that's like you know base camp and and
the different tool and don't get me
wrong and those are really critical as
well just kind of getting together
frequently enough to so many things so
many things happened that if you're not
making it frequent it's like it's unit
going it's lost
yeah and I never did everything went
after emails me see it but if I minutes
from and I have accountability with
people around me it definitely is going
to get done so in person
my preference very good
okay so uh Natalie I'm gonna start with
you again I used to think the content
was king now I think content is Queen
because distribution is king
so you've got a campaign you put the
processes and people resources in place
I know you've said you've mentioned use
influencers what else do you do to
ensure that this message your message
your kin
pain reaches the right target audience
and the largest amount so that has the
maximum potential viral you know
something that they approach we took for
giving Tuesday and the tweet was a you
know retweet for a good cause for every
sweet a dollar will go towards pencils
of promise thanks to loci so that we
actually took us two hours to craft
which why that's the easiest thing in
the world it the simplicity of it was so
important because even if you aren't a
cop supporter we wanted you to read it
we wanted you to know what this sweet
would you and it was just so simple
uh so I think that content still is
really important but also the
distribution of your content like how
simple is it you know there's so many
different things that we read there so
many platforms i can tell you one time I
feeling really shocking i'm looking at
snapchat and doing five other things you
have like two or three seconds to really
capture someone whether that's in a
headline or just your overall messaging
uh so I think they really have to go
hand-in-hand
so when we created its simplicity when
we distribute it did we get in front of
your face and you understand it in less
than a couple seconds so it's just
twitter you're not using a PPC or SEM or
any kind of other district paid
distribution now we don't know any paid
distribution uh we tried it for the
first time for our holiday campaign and
found to be really successful but I
Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and
we're on snapchat to of it that's harder
you can really track that yet we've
figured out a way but that's really what
about you do you
YouTube isn't one of our key platforms
that we use the time we have a lot of
YouTube influencers that supportive and
they push our message out through their
channels but a pencil drama students
usually more um crafted videos that
you're certain campaign arm so we don't
utilize that as much
ok alright but no no paid its all
through influencers and your own social
efforts
yeah an influencer magic though they are
magic there's no question their magic
but not to support with PPC outside your
incredible got results if you don't have
the big budgets you know you can't
really let you know I I respect for your
coming from
it's I'm I've got to fight for years
just trying to overcome the perception
that social it's free
even in the organization just because we
have big ad budget doesn't mean i could
have picked chunk right and I so special
because it's a listening to more than
anything it's the only two way
communication string that we have direct
with our audience like cut out everyone
else
how did you proceed this how do you feel
are you liking our messaging and we can
talk right back to them and it it's so
special and snapchat to I can't tell you
how many people reach out to us on
snapchat and we have direct conversation
so social it King
ok and Chad so walk us through your
distribution strategy is it different
than Natalie's do you have a budget
what do you do to ensure or to maximize
the potential for virality for your
campaigns yeah like I said I'm you know
and you know and I might probably
sounded half joking but I'm you know in
many ways i'm serious and it's all
relative ride it's it's adam you know we
we actually really struggle even a large
company you know security enough budget
especially because I'm I'm one of these
people that you know that believes that
that you know that the doing things kind
of purely organic you know just putting
some out there and open it sticks is is
a is a pretty tough proposition in
today's world i mean organic reaches
just died and so we have a number of
ways one of my kind of already mentioned
around I kind of already kind of alluded
to where is the core of a campaign a lot
of times what we like to do is think
about where there's an opportunity for
us to kind of fruit for lack of better
word kind of piggyback off of some kind
of relevant gathering or industry that
like i mentioned that campaign we did
and we say hey there's an opportunity to
go to advertising week it's relevant for
us relevant for audience and that kind
of helps because you have all these
people gathered in the same place and
there's an opportunity you can you can
kind of ignite and activate those
individuals so that's one and that kind
of starts and inception in terms of kind
of pure distribution I'm kind of okay we
got it all together and we want to get
in the market i would say number one I'm
um you know we are believers in on in
paid we do put up a real high value on
i'm using paint social in particular
just due to the very kind of hardly
targeted capabilities and the fact that
anything is kind of participatory or
social in nature you know it's it's it's
right there within the social network so
it has kind of the reach and potential
impact of what traditional display your
search but you can use it to help
activate people are so we're good
friends with with with twitter when it
comes to to paid campaigns I'd say
another big one for us it is that you
know in addition to light influence on
region partnerships which were already
met mentioned by natalie is yet we are
very very big on unpressed out on
traditional press average I mean it's
funny because it doesn't seem