56. Infoseek Founder (and Inventor of the Optical Mouse) Steve Kirsch

Summary:

Steve Kirsch is one of the most fascinating entrepreneurs we’ve been lucky enough to speak to on this show. Going back to the 1980s, he was the inventor of the optical mouse. Back in the days of desktop software suites, he brought FrameMaker to the world. He founded Abaca Technology, the spam filter company and OneId. And today he is the founder and CEO of a really interesting new startup called Token. But we wanted to speak to him about founding the search engine and web portal InfoSeek. Steve recounts all of this and more, in one of the more comprehensive conversations we’ve had with a truly serial web entrepreneur.

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Closed Caption:

the morn I
call of and
say
C
Don
welcome to the Internet history podcast
as always
I'm your host Brian McCullough Steve
kirsch
is one of the more fascinating
entrepreneurs we've been lucky enough to
speak to on the show
going all the way back to the nineteen
eighties he was the
inventor the optical mouse and back in
the days a
desktop software suites he brought cream
maker to the world
he also founded other cut technology the
spam filter company
and one ID today he is the founder and
CEO ever really interesting new startup
that he'll tell us about call token
but of course we wanted to speak to him
mostly about the founding
a the search engine and web portal
info see Steve recounts for us how in
for seek
was born and thrive during the
dot-com era and gives us
the outline of his career in one of the
more comprehensive conversations we've
been able to have with a truly serial
web entrepreneur small bit of
housekeeping here real quick
as you know I attempt to get new
episodes out every Monday
but occasionally their company I own
demands a bit more my time than usual
and this project is forced to take a
temporary backseat
next week will be one of those times
as I expect to be on the road %uh trade
and other places so there will be no
episode next week
the next new episode will be march
thirtieth so mark your calendars
in the meantime please enjoy this great
chat with
if a Sikh founder Steve kirsch
Steve Kerr's thanks for coming on the
internet history podcast
great to be here I always the
delve a little bit into the people's
education and background
and a lot of the people to talk to get
an early start in Tekken
boy definitely definitely you did to how
did you find yourself
in the computer room at UCLA
in 1969 right around there at around the
birth of ARPANET
I'll well I'll lives
very close to UCLA and I had been
exposed to computers
a in a very young age since those
sixth grade and elementary school
and so I was always looking for
opportunities to learn more about
computers that were closer to home and
it
you know I just happen to be in the
right place at the right time that UCLA
was a
short bike ride away in and they had two
people that had computers and we're
doing interesting things and
you know I just happened to be and you
know wandering around in
and hooked up with the right people so
it's alright lot of its by chance
so you're just a a precocious kid that
that wants to get to where the computers
are at and an you to start over
introduce urself I guess I'm yeah yeah
it's like your day
you know looking for a bigger bigger
computers than when I was working on
previously in we know where's the
closest biggest
bigger computers and you know they're at
UCLA and sodium
p.m. you know we was just a really
just block it was you know I did not do
any research about the ARPANET or
anything like that it was just like
a worse-than-expected computer but you
do
be friends some other people that are
involved in that the starting a bar
panetta
including a then search right oh yeah I
know it's the
so I worked on that third floor of
doctor hall and
at UCLA and i got to know all that the
people there are in
and they were actually very friendly and
tolerant a I
young junior high school kid no want to
learn more about computers and
home you know I'm so it was
mutually beneficial
that I would work cuz I tended to work
in the off hours so I would work I like
you note 3 a.m. in the morning Murray
I am and that the reason for that is
well
door there are incentives so is yes I
worked at
when other people weren't at work but
then I got to use the data point
terminals
and these data point terminals were
running at 2400 baud
and to me that was like while that's
like dianne going to happen and they
were CR
dues or CRT terminals and if I try to
use things during the day
the the although the terminals are are
so busy with the
the people were hired to do this stuff
dad
the only ones that were available for me
to use where the 30s
model 33 a estar tele types
and those things from and at you know
110 baud
our 300 baud and
it would those things were just super
super slow
and their you know typing on paper hand
and which is not a fun environment and
so that's why I chose to work at night
work at work at 2400 baud on this year
to terminal
way more call well when you say work i
mean
they're letting you work on some
projects that
that the the the larger group is working
and I don't you
right wanna the first messaging programs
are on
almost like an email client for the time
yeah yes so I rode
and and email application it was not an
Internet
email application because the internet
didn't exist at that point
I it was and an application that ran on
the
drug Sigma 7 and that allowed
team members to communicate with each
other over email
even if there was a local email was a
male
I am that you would send messages to
other people on the system
rather than I to someone else on the
Internet
and I read i this is neither here nor
there but I read that
that you also had a job repairing
pinball machine at the time
I well my psyche I want my summer job so
I need my god job retention
machines and that's because it paid
forty-five dollars an hour and
as a high school student their word with
I
your I'd didn't find any other jobs that
would pay more than forty five dollars
an hour
and I had experience a.m. a yummy needed
make sense I I have experience
say in ticking time bomb machines
because my father
about a pinball machine and it was
constantly breaking and so I can know
said what was it interesting I wonder
how six-person
disorders I learned how pinball machines
worked
and you don't end up being pretty good
deal because you can earn a lot of money
in a very short amount of time
and the the the places that rent a
pinball machines
I we're all happy to pay me
forty-five dollars an hour because the
alternative was to pay the professionals
we're charging you know sixty dollars an
hour so
you know it worked out well for me and
it worked out well for the
some for my employer you end up going to
to MIT was that a.m. didn't surf
the suggest that to you talk yeah I know
what you know we always went I said you
know i
I don't I want to vent I said so we're
keeping us got a college in relation
computers
and he said well you go MIT Caltech or
I'm a car keen on notes that those were
the a the
big places at the time so I I'm not sure
on the chronology the so correct me if
I'm wrong but I
I believe when you're at MIT you doing a
lot of
programming and enlist and Lisp for
those that
that would know or wouldn't remember um
the input
wanna input devices were early mice
p might now sits smack so I'm
your at this point where not a lot of
people are using mice
a.m. with computers you are and it
occurs to you that there could be a
better way than the mechanical ball mice
have the time and so you
now you not together and invent the
first optical mouse
I yeah that's right so delicious
machines I were you saying
mice um made by a guy named Holly who
arm developed mechanical mice and for
for Xerox and I
does were the kind the only my stupid
get
but the problem is they kept getting
clogged
and you know you draw a man sideways and
the mouse wouldn't tracked it because
tracking mechanism got stalled at the
ball wasn't rolling in its casing and so
forth
and so I thought you know this is kinda
but waste because bogus machines were
two hundred thousand dollar machines and
that you can use them
I keyboards are great we had your router
keyboards which were just
of some I'm but the mice were
horrible and so i thought well
you know there's gotta be a better way
to do this and if we can get rid the
moving parts we have a much more
reliable tracking mechanism
then up the ball mice
and and and these were using metal balls
at the time
broder ok over balls at that
you know newer my shoes government since
then
and so I say came up with a way to
a use a checkerboard pattern Anna four
quadrant optical sensor
and it could dan determine very
accurately
I which way you you were going and
that's that subsequently got refined
use multi-color so that there were two
callers have lines
and so I had um I was able to create
a pattern where eats were printed in
infrared such that
they would be I have an infrared LED
in a red LED and I had winds on the
paper and the winds were such that
under the infrared LED see the
horizontal lines and under the
are red LED you'd see vertical lines and
so I took a
very difficult problem in just broke
down into to you really easy problems to
solve it or just alternated lights
um which would then text exposes
satellites man I had
a.m. a four quadrant optical detector
and no both directions
and the reason for the four quadrants is
because they could ban
artwork demand differential mode and
that allowed me
I am to avoid any sort of calibration
a false you know cuz I would just use
the I am
it would take a signal from one and
subtracted from the signal
was the other one which was designed to
being I 180 degrees out of phase
are based on line spacing and the
spacing
love sensors and so a
that was the design I was that the
initial design was a checkerboard one
and then we went to the
a but to lines with different
first and so that that was the store the
first verse number
optical mouse and it was such a simple
technology we commit it could be
implemented
I which varies a simple programmable
computers that you had at the time
I am so we had you know pretty basic
chips that you could program
in assembly language arm to go and do
all the watcher required to capitol
lines into
present an RS 232
interface a out about
they could then be plugged into account
computer and interpreted
and so bet all worked arm
so was you know putting together the
idea are putting together the hardware
to do it and then programming
arm the computer a to do that so you do
you you just started shopping around to
to their computer makers at the time I'm
tooth
to see if they want to license it
unlikely even take it to Apple
at some point yeah so
I am I got an appointment from some
friends of mine so I get an appointment
to steal see Steve Jobs
and
so the some I got notice that yeah
I Muni with him and I think I'd like
batiks
and at the time I haven't built anything
so a handout
the old I all the hardware and write all
this offer in three weeks wall
being a student at MIT and not feeling
in my classes
so means then ended up being quite a
challenge
who are specially since I had 0 you know
we learn a lot of things to be able to
do not
I but to iight
I did have some help from people arm
and and we were able to put it together
and in time for the demo and it works
great and then nasty steve Jobs was tell
me said well
you know great concept you know love it
but you need to lose the pad
I might go I'm chest Wow
I partners so close but so far because
how do I do this without a pad
and so I didn't think at the time but
you know looking at the microstructure
owes
those arm surfaces
as a way to detect motion and never
required more sophistication in terms of
those
up what I was able to do which is simple
logic gates in and so forth sounds
um so I while he
a.m. you know I did so things just
and went forward from that um and
designed our refined overtime in I am
you know so the rest is history right
and and I know this is
that's giving head slightly by them you
eventually do create a
company called mouse Systems Corporation
22
to market pure mice and that was your
first
sort of successful start-up I would say
yeah
I I outta my Jessica job is a
a suffrage in here for one corporation
doing of animation software we're using
converging technologies workstations
and and at night I would move my tongue
on the mouse idea and try to refine and
eventually I quit my job in
and did nah systems full-time
and I am so
weed and started producing these things
commercial the
we created interface old work on the PCC
to do so with spreadsheets
like Lotus 1-2-3 I'll was around the
time so it was
really cool to be able to use the mouse
to navigate your spreadsheets rather
than have to
hip day arm there are yea Rockies
I am constantly and so that was a big
hit
Sun Microsystems was building a
workstation maybe that a mouse
and even like mechanical my sodium day
gave us on some big orders I and
and so that was just really hope for
getting Dec company off the ground
and Adam growing up the successive
love up their company I am sorta lied to
you too
your next company a few years later I am
which is would be called frame
Technology Corp but it was a
it was a company that that you seed
founded
to essentially um develop and market
and software that someone else created
which was
are their FrameMaker the
publishing software called FrameMaker
can you tell us a little bit about that
are sure I E I when I was at
mouse systems I because we sold the Sun
Microsystems I got to know a guy named
John gage was there sort of their chief
science officer john was
always into doing crazy sayings
I am and I he's a you john was
quite a o'clock tick in his interest
and I we were talking when Danny said
heyyyy wrenches
this the this young guy Charles Qwest
Field
and he's has I'm be beginning so
what might be actin our competitors
interleave I N East
just a super smart kid and I think you
should meet with him
and so I followed arm
John's advice and I met with
Charles and I was impressed by what he
did in nineteen
um I thought means you know this has
potential and I said hey wanna media
I get together start a company like
buying I'm can hire some other people
that I work with that
and mouse systems are they you know ran
into and
and I think we can make you got this and
knows two men should be
we became a huge um competitor to inner
leaf as a little startup company we
gotta love
lucky breaks from Digital Equipment
Corporation
helping to fund this into Schieber
corporation was a
help define us as well and I
and so without really any bencher
capital financing or in on not a heck of
a lot of business experience we created
a
a company which eventually got acquired
by Adobe Systems for half a billion
dollars
rate which brings us
to to when I i'm interested in talking
about them
which is the idea that I'm starts to
form in your head around search but it
wasn't internet search
on you were you were messy room it was
CD-rom's at the time and CD-rom's
like a magazine catalog that had a
search function right
yeah but that was um computer is called
computer library
and it was a CD-rom and you had
somewhere around %uh huh
murder so might might have been more I
computer publications I doubt we're
love members if Davis computer
publications
that were put on a CD rom and the beauty
of this is that you could
stick to CD-rom into your computer you
tape if you search terms
and in just seconds you would
get the all the articles are rock
relevant to that search and i was just
an amazing experience and the great
thing is that
even know we had systems like die out
dialogue was
was some big back to an end but the prom
a dialogue is that was super expensive
you know it yet
search would cost two or three dollars
to find something in that
that sorta price penalty to do the
search
you know three dollars search and then
you're paying five dollars for the
article
and just got really expensive really
fast whereas the beauty of computer
library it was a
arm fixed priced
I subscription annual church as many
times as you want you find as many
articles you want to read as much as you
want and you just paid up 16 price
I and so I sawed
Wow this is a great concept I
and would be great if we can make this
available to people on the internet
I am didn't these
and M and make it available to at super
low cost because we can't
it defines would be much higher and
the initial idea behind intro seek
was to how to do a dot to do what I like
did but do it at a much grander scale
and at much lower cost and so was
originally a
for a fee for service you would pay we
will give you like 10 free hits or
whatever but you have to pay for
she went beyond that and so it was ok
little while later that we discovered
there is much better to give people
are free results and to use as a traffic
magnet
and then charge for advertising right
because let's let's frame the time line
here
this is bad 1993 that they
that he starred in pussy great the
match sounds good to get that sounds
about right okay so this is
I mean the web exists but it's not it's
not even what the web
it blows up to become in 1994 1995 so
what the search initially is
arm is it people are searching for what
well its I am one we created in first
seek
a met a it mosaic
I was too big browser at the time
and of course has turned into you know
Michelle R and
from I and turned it well a mosaic
the guys you know such distorted
netscape and that
so turned into netscape me know which
eventually turn into him
mazzola I so that
a mmm so we were didn't primary search
engine we end up being the primary
search engine for for netscape and
that drove a tunnel traffic are
our way because people wanted to search
the net and so
we we actually started off by focusing
on computer publications and
I am that wasn't to fruit phone man
we thought okay we'll with this internet
search thing as a sideline
and be very quickly became our our main
mind a business that
people were I'm much more interested in
searching the net
funny things on the net I and that we
can help without bread and bread then
search
to be computer publications writes a
and when you start in for Shiki you're
starting it with your own money this
time from from
the previous companies succeeding right
yeah
and we we got venture money are early on
are from a number of investors and so
that that really helped in terms of
being able to
I am serb the company when the win you
do pivot to okay the web is is really
where there where this business should
be
I'm this idea upsurge in things like
that um
whether the what are the competitors at
the time aids excite launched
I know that Yahoo
was probably launch but that was more of
a directory than a search engine so who
who were that
who would you look at as your
competitors in that space I am
when we first started I I do like
clothes
I am was there I am
and there were some white matter crawler
I think might have been
I in existence or you know was there
soon after
from and medics site
um came on I a bit later and Alta Vista
came on our
a bit later so we were really the
there there were a few alternatives for
search
arm but we were arm
you know white like us will probably be
but the biggest competitor
I at the time when at you you mention
that you
you pit to okay the be the
web searches is gonna be where where
it's at is is it because of the volume
is it because %uh the web exploding
all well you yeah I mean when we got to
the deal to be
I we hit the net search but not netscape
it first aid
they were just listing all the search
engines and then we paid them a ton of
money
and we be you hit net search and you
would get our search engine
I am as but I'm sorry but that the top
of page
for that and and that was just driving
time love pageviews and a ton a revenue
for us and the revenue
you mention that you originally your
idea was to do some
sort of me know paper searchers
subscription model but so when do you
make the pivot to
from to advertising-supported I you it
wasn't
it didn't take too long for us to figure
out that it would be much better to do
the
advertisers where you at first we were
giving people hate your 10 free search
results in a few one
more than here's how to pay for it I am
and so it went from bad I
we hired a guy from I am Wired magazine
and bill his name is bill pack and
bill was a I'm big I
I am help in terms of our drive to
the cost-per-click can me
arm a
the I'm now
diary you what we charge per thousand
impressions and you know so he would be
selling on
on impression so we would say hey you
would get
I it would be ten cents per thousand or
whatever
and we also developed the banner ads
and so we had we created
arm your reasonable size for the banner
ads and
I'll get everybody to standardize on
paid
this is the size but banners that we're
on and eight
you could put any content you wanted and
now like handmade gifts and so forth
I but you had a I stick to that I so
the first I adds that we had were banner
ads and
we tried to ban rats two keywords and
I'm
I and that's kind of how it began
there's a lot of other innovations that
that embassy was responsible for a man
you guys had had tons of interesting
patents Lake
um you know even
accounting click sono on web page
advertisements from
distributed search techniques and things
like that
the but I don't digit did you guys ever
actually
be he only had those pens defensively
never actually
some exploited those patents right yeah
that's good that's right
yet we r they were dead more it were a
combination of two things one is
defensive but I would say it's more to
I am active for competitive edge so that
if we had depend on this time a
competitor
couldn't duplicate that and so that was
that the more valuable thing
was ordered a a
underlying thread for litigation and
then any real litigation
because nobody really are violated any
of our our patents
so what what's your role in the company
area are you ever the CEO have been tho
seek
or are you basically the the
technologist in there and the idea guy
no no I was a CEO for for quite some
time at
at all the companies that I've slum a
that I have sounded but it but at some
point and you
you hire outside people you can you
bring in CEOs to try to
a.m. ramp up business right and
where the I've I I read that
maybe you feel like I'm some others
people weren't the right people
I hiring is always a tricky thing and
I hire some good people and I heard some
bad people I
lit and I don't think that's been true
throughout my career and
you know we'd love to only hire great
people that
I that work out spectacularly well
throughout life for the company and I am
you know you make some mistakes along
the way but
I'm you tried it to recognize each made
a mistake and
and six in it and move on and sometimes
that's hard to do that
you may recognize that you made a
mistake and the board dozen
I think typically our boards of
directors a startup companies are
arm very slow tomb
I am slower than they should be to make
a change in
in the CEO cuz that's the number one job
at the borders to
hired for the CEO and I think that
boards in general
I the big mistake I've seen is not
pulling the trigger fast enough
when you have the wrong guy in place and
but you don't want aboard to be
trigger-happy either so it
it's a delicate mix but in general I
found that
there are a lot of VC firms that are are
not good
at basically recognizing that they made
a mistake when they
approved the hiring of a CEO and and
have been too slow to
are correct that there
and more with one other questions
that I i've spoken day up you know bob
davis
up Lycos Cindy and George Bell affects a
tan um
iight I'll grant you that it's easy for
me to ask this question
in retrospect but is it possible that
one up the mistake strategically
that was made was this whole move
towards becoming a portal that basically
all in all the search
engines did some in the later nineties I
am
with the idea being that that that would
help to take you
your focus of search as your Corp right
now I and II
yeah yeah I know II love this fact so
I am I was I am
much more %uh the opinion that we should
do the best we should stick to the
knitting and do the best
search engine that we could possibly do
in which should be you know is much more
that Google for loss a/c
a hey let's index the entire web in it's
really important that the people be able
to find anything they want
and what was interesting as they are a
lot of pushback from the product manager
same father only $10 million interesting
pages on the web and nobody really
change that
to look at I more than that we should
just in
we should just on our time indexing be
most relevant interesting 10 million
pages on the web
and I will provide a lot of value
because when people don't have to
sort through crops on their searches
and it'll be fast and I
will check that box and that if we
really want to expand
I our market that we should do things I
did then search
and so that was the thinking at the time
I I am
I my god she always that that was a
mistake that
that the we should be the biggest
fastest largest
and duo kick ass job search and I'm
but a.m. other people disagreed
and so that's that's the reason that we
got into the sport of playing
and if you look at at coming like ya who
they were extremely successful
and expanding there
their directory in doing more than just
directory I
and so that was kinda like a success
case that we could look at and
and emulate a and so I E
that's a that's why we wanted in in that
particular
art direction rate that's I and legible
to be %ah who because even though
obviously we're thinking of
Google when we're looking back at this
retrospectively but at the time it was
ya who that
that sort of was the king of the hill
amongst the
five or six major search engines are
search sites we should say
I'm what to you at the time were even
now
what would you place their success to
a was it was it branding was it
I don't know the the image the
friendliness the
what what do you think it was that that
made ya who rise to their
to the head in that pack are well
being their first helped a lot people
then have
a way to browse the internet to find out
what's out there
I and so ya who is out there
as a a director that people could use
and I am
you if be a day day did a good job
executing it was fast
it was simple it was easy to use
it was had a lot of good information I
was being expanded by editors
I and it was useful and so they did a
lot of things right
I and you know soap your part is being
wonky being in the right place
right time in part is having a a a great
product that was
simple and easy to use and
and provide a lot of utility for people
so
I am you know they'd they did are really
well with in there
space and we did well in our space in
in for seek I'm eventually
a is is purchased by by Disney and
becomes part of their their go dot com
strategy
o'rourke there go dot com portal I
should say I
be what was the decision
to to sell to Disney was it just that
the the the money was so big or was that
you felt like
if you could get a company with that
level resources behind work in for a sec
was doing that maybe you could take it
to the next level
you know it's basically a way to say hey
we can get access to more stops
I am net Disney had a lotta content
sites you know Disney had acquired ESPN
I am a and
well as the yet near this some actually
was star wave that they acquired
I'm star we provide the technology I
behind some services like ESPN and so
forth and so
Disney had after other assets as well
you know proprietary content and so
forth and so
with the thinking was that ya babe they
came to us
and and they want to to buy the company
because Disney wanted to
created a web presence for themselves
and we looked at it
as wow you know this is a pretty
attractive of
offer compared to our no public
valuation
as a.m. a you know the board has a
fiduciary responsibility to shareholders
to the
look at I at any offers that are out
there in noticing the tractor in a way
for us to
to move the company forward in I am I
create a more compelling offering are
more expensive offering to
are customer base I
as I mentioned I ives I've spoken to
several other
early search CEOs and I've asked them
the same question which is
I it could you imagine a different world
where were in it for your in your case
in for seek specifically had maybe
remain independent
and could have become a strong
competitor to Google
or what Google a potentially became I am
had we turn them down could that happen
rayon yes he could have happened I G
would be less likely to happen because
there wasn't a focus on search that
there was on Google
and I think that I you know in
retrospect it was a mistake for me to
have said you know hey
I you know you guys should go with my
gut feeling as opposed to your
you know logical argument that we should
you know give de-emphasize search
and so I am
I think that was a a strategic mistake
said
probably wouldn't have been reversed if
we turn down the I
to the on the offer from Disney
and so I think that
I am you know just a really really
important
to red men look at at sorta
make logical arguments the more
important thing is is really to
listen to your your customers and
understand where your customers
are I asking you for an
and what they want and we knew early on
that the did two biggest things in a
customer's mind when they use a search
engine is
is the two things are it's faster to
find what you want
in order to do we're certainly fast
some but strongly indexing
10 million pages if I can find what you
want because there's a huge long tail
love information
and I'm you know
the anytime you you deviate from that
wasn't your customers make sure your
you're always a
I seating customer expectations
on that's when you can run into trouble
especially if you have a a competitor
possible with better technology
now again a a lot of people I talk to an
on this show are serial entrepreneurs
but I feel sick
almost CPU you more so than than most
because I mean you've been starting
companies going back to 1982 and
and after the in for 6l I think you
stated in a little while but you're
already on to
to other companies like propel
um is it a Bocca which does the the spam
filter
a software right yep no
and today you're with your with 180 I
yeah nine started another company after
that call token
in tell me about token well token
I am is all about fixing the problem
with payments
I cuz see you are most modern payment
railways
Bech system in it turns out it's not
credit cards is actually the seat system
that moves 42
40 I am trillion dollars a year
and some most the money is used
and Muslim money in America's moves 3ch
and what's remarkable is that they be
technology has not changed significantly
a at all in in four decades
and so I i've done may see a transaction
were took me 11
it were to 11 days to move 10 cents
from one bag each other at and Wells
Fargo to another
I wanna my banking house at Wells Fargo
holidays a long time
to move 10% chance hand and other things
as well you know with credit cards were
leasing credit card breaches and apple
pear course there are
the issues with the security madam
arm I you know they're they're just what
I've
in-order their break-ins were credit
card numbers are exposed in people's art
in the search exposed and so forth
and so we've been using really very very
old technology
in order to move I am a
value I im in and
value in most cases money but I I
so we think it is is payments and we've
been using all technology you do that
women using very old paradigm
I for for that as well
your credit cards or very very old and
you know it's based on sort a 6-year-old
church grid technology that
no response no my credit card number six
for the personally give it two in a
response to forget it sousa give it to
them
and you know the world has moved on
and the attackers I
debt are are trying to steal money from
the system's
are many do a pretty good job at the
Apple pay rates far greater
a six or seven percent for some blunders
I am
and had apple today you know they spend
a lot of time
arm on that the security aspects about
I but so too are the two point is that
the the attackers are always
out there and because we're using stasio
these payment rails that were put in
fifty years ago I
dead fundamentally haven't changed that
much in there been some incremental
improvements especially in the credit
card area
but much less so in the AChR area I
and so basically we have a pretty old
antiquated
system based on really all technology
and
the the people that are trying to
exploit the systems are using the latest
and greatest walls
and so it's just really time that we
updated
I'm how we move money and we rethink the
paradigm
a that we use to to move money and
that's what open is all about
is in saying look there's a better way
to do this
that where we can leverage secure
identity that we can leverage
possible federated identity that we can
leverage
additional signatures we could leverage
I a Tonna miss digital
agents a better working forests and so
forth
and so I we can take this very simple
thing irv hey
keeping me five dollars I a request
and we can handle that in a completely
new
cool I'm slick way gives us a lot of
flexibility in
you open architectures and digital
signatures and all sorts of things
to give us a lot of flexibility for how
we can go and respond to that request
and so to a token is all about in a
bowling
arm a new infrastructure I
said that we can have a payment system
which is really like I am a
modern H I am in a way better than
anything we've ever seen before
and so I'm being alone but little bit
cautious in terms of them I'm not try to
reveal everything about how it works
but its you know other than its yeah
it'll be a a game-changing
saying I think for for payments and you
know i i tell people that this is the
future
money and it that sounds pretty
grandiose
in and so forth but I can tell you that
the people that we disclose this do they
say
yeah shoes this is really call this a
really big this is impressive
you know and all that stuff and so a
so that's what I'm involved in now is is
changing %uh
the way that um that people get paid
well let me just ask one question about
that hopefully this is broad enough that
you can answer
is the idea to to bring the banks on
board
with the system or is that yes rape a
whole new system outside at the picnic
no I
its its it's a little
to both in that that this system is
agnostic
in terms of where your assets or
and so you have your assets in the bank
or you can add your assets in a virtual
currency in work na stick
to doubt but we do damage book the whole
system is designed to be compatible
and compliance I with rules and
regulations
apps a nations and and States I
dat a that regulate a
the flow of money and so on my bed coin
which was
I am kinda designed in spite of
regulation
I we were designed I
to be totally compliant from with a
with regulations because I have no
interest in
in going to jail I have no interest in
creating things which are illegal or
might be
illegal it's that's just not I just
don't think that's a very productive
thing to do
nor do I think that that serves I it's
not a practice thing to do
I for the consumer as my protective
thing to do for the
I N and for the country either
because these the the regulations are
designed for to protect consumers and
are also designed to
arm a card against money laundering
and so I you know closer
losers things that that we'd like to do
and
we'd like to comply with I'm so for
Steve I've
if I could close from by asking a.m.
simply a personal question I about your
health because I know that
many years ago now you were diagnosed
with a rare form of blood cancer
and were given though a dire diagnosis
serve
only a few years to live but you're
obviously still with us and sounds like
you're still thriving so I wanted to
find out
am I will be able to pronounce the name
at the disease but I wanted to know I am
how that's progressed yeah so
I was diagnosed with firewalls
instruments macroglobulinemia
I'll a while ago
and I think it was back in 2007
right yet authorized yes yes yeah and so
day I usually have about five or six or
seven years to live
I am sithole hi
I'm still around and kicking and people
look at me and they
day doing a lot of people always come up
to me it's circuit pressure cancer doing
do you have cancer and
and they can't believe that because I
look E have the same and I look
healthier than
than I them up a lot of people who don't
have cancer
and I am I
so I've been as a gone through a series
of drugs in
you'll find cancers all about picking
the right drugs and
a and and being lucky
and I happened to be lucky in that I
went with their
I am II do one thing that was unlucky is
my cancer is incurable they were the
orange generally it's
incurable that they're very few people
that and are able to
get the cancer erotic it'd but it's a
very slow-moving cancer
and so the treatments or very good at
um slowing down a very slow cancer
and so I or basically stopping it from
progressing in so I've had
I've been on drug treatments that have
arrested the Paresh number
Up to Cancer no its not like from it's a
blood cancer and so as long as you keep
your dad
Bay arm your you're in good shape and
you can
leave lead eight a very long twice
I and sometimes you get on Buckingham
that lead to cancer transforms
berserk you're careful about the
treatments that use a locked
innu you get involved in you get
educated about what your calendars are
and you insert yourself into be
decision-making
a chain I think you get a better results
in Sao mai
arm I
when I was diagnosed there are a lot of
alternatives and I
I'll look through the pros and cons of
each alternative
and I was the one making the the final
decision in terms of which
which treatments that I wish except I
didn't go for anything that was released
us and I didn't do any of the strong
chemo treatments
I and because the potential side effect
on the road and because those
the the possibility that
cancer could transform into something
that would be more difficult Street
and so I've I've taken up a path a let's
try to be
the stuff that has the least side
effects first
before we go and we march up the heavy
artillery that has a lot of collateral
damage
and I've been lucky enough to find drugs
and you know pick past that were
successful for me
I and that this cut my cancer peso
does so that's the a quick story about
well that's that's great to hear and and
I know that done
you're you're a noted philanthropist I
know that you've also
done a lot to to contribute to
to researching for that disease as well
so I yeah
so you know I'm help where
wherever we can so that some you know
where I work to make it work so I can
make a difference to try to
um get involved in you know Pichincha
well Steve Kirch thank thank you for ARM
thank you for coming on the podcast and
I'm going
outlining what is really a remarkable
entrepreneurial career that as
as you've outlined doesn't doesn't seem
to be
ending anytime soon so good luck in your
future endeavors
thanks brian
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