Retail Repair vs. Refurbishment vs. Data Recovery - Debating Smartphone Repair

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Let’s take a look at competing repair industry business models: repair, refurbishment, and data recovery. Our experts duke it out at the Electronics Reuse Conference. John Bumstead (rdklinc.com) advocates his refurbishment business model, Jessa Jones (mendonipadrehab.com) speaks up for data recovery, and Ivan Mladenovic (techbarmiami.com) makes the pitch for retail repair. Which business model do you prefer?

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Closed Caption:

alright we're going to talk the Great
Divide and so we have representing three
corners of this debate you've met Ivan
Ivan runs tech bar which is a retail
repair organization Jessa are I'm sorry
we'll go this way
John John Bumstead is from Chicago he
does are referred work on macbooks
primarily and he focuses you see in the
father he has piles and piles of
macbooks I have all of these wonderful
pose
I i'm not going to attempt to much
social media here but all of you if
you're on Instagram have to follow John
on Instagram he is the single best
instagram feed I've ever seen
it's glitch art so recently a second
deciphered i briefly tell us about your
Instagram well I i see so many hundreds
of broken screens and also so many gb
you defects that now and then I just see
one and think oh that's kind of pretty
so I'll take pictures and all I like to
put you know a broken screen up against
the GPU defect and then cycle you know
images behind them just kind of do all
sorts of combinations so you know it's
something i do want to get bored repairs
aren't it's marvelous
that's awesome so John is representing
the repurposing side of things and and
then you have all met Jessica Johnson
Jessa is has been doing a lot of repairs
and you're here on this panel to argue
that we shouldn't fix anything ever has
been water damaged that's true yeah no
wonder no wonder they know what anyone's
for this
ok so to kinda is take out the positions
here John why don't you start out and
tell us a little bit about why you don't
want around
tell repair shop um well I mean should I
start really interested to the shirt yes
tell us about your business and then you
can say yes and so what I do is I by
thousands of broken laptops from my hand
full of electronics recyclers so on the
one side of the business like I get one
of those thousands of laptops in the
mail and I repair or refurbish those
then I saw them wholesale to a handful
of wholesale customers who in turn sell
to end users so they take the burden of
dealing with end-users away from me you
know i think the refurbishing model is a
good choice because people tend to
default to the end user facing model the
default to the repair for higher model
whereas in refurbishing model you don't
sell the service you sell the computer
you know and there's a lot of benefits
to 22 doing that you know because i have
good relations and plug both sides with
with my recyclers of my customers and
I've been dealing with them all 435
seven years i'm able able like i said to
just cut out the general public entirely
you know I don't have my calendar
littered with you know dozens of
deadlines
I don't have to deal with tech support I
don't have to deal with just any of the
stuff that you deal with dealing with
end-users I absolutely refuse to deal
with that users i will not sell a single
computer by itself because it's just not
worth my time because i saw 20 30
computers in boxes of 10 the day and as
soon as you get one guy knocking on your
door it turns into a third of the day
dealing with one person so another
aspect that's that's that's great about
being a refresher is you own what you
work on you even when those computers
come in the door i am you know I own
those computers i can repair those
computers i can put them on the shelf
I can scrap the parts i can mess them up
and it doesn't matter if I mess them up
because you know it's not like someone
was depending on me to get the machine
for monday for a presentation so i'll
just say oh well you know scrap that one
and move on to the next
but the most important thing is that i
can choose to do the repairs that makes
sense i don't have to do a repair
because someone wants it i choose to do
the repairs that makes sense as in terms
of money in terms of my time so that's
very valuable to be able to you know
sort of determine your own your own
schedule and your own path that way
let's see specialization and
optimization and there's a saying that
if you take on the world the world
always went but if you take on a very
small piece of the world you can become
a master at that you can be ten times
better at that than anyone who could be
10 times faster at than anyone you know
in my case I work with apple laptops i
think that's the best product deal with
honestly you know and and because you
specialize in something small you can
then optimize that you can turn it
around as quickly as possible you have a
thousand about machine on hand so you
don't have to buy parts i never by parts
because i scrapped machines because I
only deal with a few machines and I have
thousands you know the smallest unit of
our businesses is the individual
transaction and so optimizing that
transaction making it as high-quality as
quick as possible and then cranking it
out as many times as you can to make as
much money as you can
you know that's that's that's very
important and with the refurbishing
model it's it's you can do that it's a
model that is designed to make that work
I guess the last thing I'll say is the
refurbishing model if you're doing it
right
doesn't require any marketing and you
don't need a retail presence because i'm
not you know welcoming the general
public so i don't need an interface to
them in addition I don't need to prove
anything to them
I don't need to show them my workspace
none of that you know I work out of my
house my house is basically a factory
but I work out of my house and you don't
really need marketing if you have your
relationships on your supplier side and
on your customer side you get to a point
where you're at capacity and unite
rebound suppliers they turned down
customers
you know where as opposed to a normal
business where you know it's just
marketing marketing marketing trying to
get those one off sales through the door
constantly in order to keep your
business alive in the wholesale
refurbishing world you just want a few
good customers who are repeat customers
to the tune of thousands and thousands
of machines and i find that to be a lot
easier so that's that's basically the
run that and and that's why you should
refurbish and that's the end of this
work if it's John wins the debate that
didn't know this is it that you bring up
a lot of compelling points and all I
think a lot of the points you bring up
our paint points3 yes they are
if you've you've read the book or her
anything about lean startup like that's
a lien that's a lean business its high /
low expenses good revenue it's a good
model yeah it is a good model just
didn't do it that way excited i know
right i met john i was like wait what do
you do like this is great no he doesn't
everybody do this is like no because I
got this down to a science and I do
these three computers and was like
nobody should do 10 computers none of
these three computers are perfectly so
yeah ever since I met him and we've kept
in touch and and it's a fascinating
business model i guess from for me it's
a hard business a scale so my my
business on a retail store I don't know
most of you probably in the morning
session by one retails chain of stores
is an IT consulting business so I retail
business obviously has a a much more i
guess i perceived to be a larger
potential revenue stream because
everybody's my potential customer and I
think that figuring out a way to drive
them and that marketing and certainly at
a challenge but it's actually not that
much of a challenge generally if you put
up a retail store talking about this
earlier if you put a retail store in the
right location people will come they
just show up to your front door because
that people need things fixed but i
think that they both internally have had
challenges we definitely are challenged
with bringing more people into the door
in a regular basis and we are dealing
with the end user but ultimately our
business can scale at
a level of you break i fix or a cpr
where I can be a tens of millions of
dollar business where I'm sure it can
also be at a refurbishment model and it
does there are people here that have
such businesses but it it's depends also
the quality of life you want to lead
right that I think that you don't have
business that that does allow you a
certain quality of life and it's very
lean and I'm a little jealous but but
there's also a personality difference
here right where I think I think that
John's personality is one where he's not
a customer-service oriented guy and this
is ok right and but but you're gonna be
I mean is he seems like this is
something I mean you're very passionate
earlier today when you're talking about
the importance of service and yeah I'm
well I'm sure John gives good customer
service he just doesn't get to a lot
less people I i like the client
interaction i like the end user
interaction i get a lot of I get a kick
out of creating a promoter of my
business and then that person brings
more people into my business
that's it that's an exciting feeling
when someone believes in you and believe
in your business model and believe in
your brand enough so that they'll tell
somebody else about it and and if you
are able to create a a wildfire effect
of that you end up with companies like
Apple you end up companies that have
such a strong brand presence that they
can command whatever price they want to
make you wait isn't as many lines as you
want because you want that product from
that person so we've been able to build
that reputation in our community for our
store that the after just having a
discussion are at lunchtime but it also
depends on the market there are people
in my market that will not pay my prices
no matter how good or how amazing I am
at the same time there are people that
will only come to my store because it's
my store and it's our bread so I think
that that fragmentation create some
difficulty and running a retail model
but but you have I think
longer term potential for scaling that
business because of the the model that
is ok fair enough
so we've heard two sides on this jessica
has been fixing boards for a while and
there's a certain category of boards
that you prefer not to fix yes but first
John sucks because what he's doing is
super boring come on did you see the
picture with you like thousands of
stacked laptops that are all the same
that what this news I mean wouldn't you
just rather kill yourself then have to
stand there and take the same
motherboard out of the same laptop like
about the time I I couldn't stand that I
i would i would absolutely die you know
and then you sock obviously because
because customers suck man
and anyway I heard you in the first
session where you're like yeah you know
like a douchebag customer comes in and
he's messed up his phone and you're
gonna replace this device even though
you know you guys didn't do anything
wrong that would like kill you inside
you know like you know like just the dog
that would drive me crazy
his customers our customers you know
know what's really awesome data recovery
because everybody loves data recovery
you know I mean data recovery is got the
best part of customers i mean you know
it's it's from customers are great when
you're making them happy and there's
nothing that makes anyone happier than
for you to give a mother back the
pictures of her baby from the phone that
you know somebody spilled coffee on
that's like a life's moment of greatest
joy second only to actually having that
baby is that the pictures back and
you're getting two to make those calls
like I love sitting down and writing the
it's good news
you know it and it's so fantastic and
then how much are they going to pay
whatever you want to charge you know
like this there is no like while I could
go by on you know
wow you can really go back and recreate
those first steps pictures you know
so so you know data recovery is is is so
much fun you know because you're dealing
with customers but you're making them
happy and with a notebook no data no fee
model you know if you're if you're not
able to recover the data you know then
you're not charging them anything so
they're really just you know you tried
your best they appreciate your efforts
they know they had to send it to the
right place and they're you know they're
there they're happy and they'll send you
something else for you two to try again
later
you know and you know so I i absolutely
love data recovery and at the same time
you know I don't do for the sake of the
phone water damage repair you know and
that's sort of the same thing with
refurbishing you know when you said you
know your your customers you you own the
device which is true but if you're going
to refurbish it and asked to like work
like all of it you know like this laptop
needs to work so that it has a display
it has keyboard function and blah blah
and when you put it all back together
and then
oh this port doesn't work well that's
your problem because you own it if it's
a repair customer or data recovery
customer especially if the Wi-Fi does
America cares you know already already
got the did you know if it's a repair
you know where they they own the device
you know then you're fixing a primary
problem secondary problems is there
their problem you know they can also pay
for the secondary problem to fix or not
for you it's all your problem because
you won't write so obviously data
recovery best and you know that's John
best luck you guys
John defend yourself a little bit with
the alright so you get a whole laptop
together and then the left USB port
doesn't work well you know you i buy
stuff very cheap I'm very very cheap
I have a rule but i have a well-liked
i'll never pay more for a machine that i
can sell it for broken which means if
someone comes to me with the 2013
macbook pro and says oh but there's a
battery issue my prices a hundred bucks
you know so I by hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of machines very cheap
so if that port that would work well
guess what i have so many more hundreds
of them and I'll just swap out the board
it's not kill a machine that from 2009
that all that one that one
ok but I i apply for mostly from
electronics recyclers so they do tend to
be older machines there you go
yeah if it and Christmas address is that
specific tips and everything he accepts
gamelords this minimum gaylord quantity
so the question for you
so once everyone's has their phones and
they're replicating to the cloud and
there's a backup of everything on the
cloud
okay what happens to that as well well
you know you think that would be the way
it is right now because you know you get
a new iphone let's set it up and it it's
really difficult to not have it back up
to the cloud
I mean it's you know like if you don't
want to put a passcode on your phone you
have to like no no seriously like not
now like not ever you know it's hard to
not have it backed up to the club
however you know we get called with me
sunday was on the phone like a couple
minutes ago and I hear her hundred
dollars for rush service on top of 242
recovery you know because people just
don't know how to set it up
they think it's setup but it's not
that's really common you know like I
thought it was set up and now I realize
that that it's not you know so but but
like anything I think that you know data
recovery is relatively new for me and
it's sort of seeing we're a niche is
that's unoccupied and right now all the
data recovery guys are super gurus with
clean rooms and getting spinning drives
to spin again and they're really awesome
at taking android devices and taking
chips off and you know reading and
they're really awesome at USB drives but
nobody knows how to fix and get data off
of iOS encrypted devices like iphone 6
nobody nobody know
does that mean you know i'm a mom and my
girl which is another great thing you
know we're working on super low rent and
but but but you guys are the business
I'm not the business I'm here my stores
are in Miami making revenue right now
maybe revenue her head and and happy
you're here it's super hard and any
other cases I mean we do data recovery
off iOS devices and so it's just part of
our repair process but i'm able to add
on the fact of putting that information
on their new device or selling them a
new device so there's that that's to me
just part of the process I think that
when you I kind of agree with the cloud
model I mean we sell cloud backup to
every client that comes in with a
computer that has the capability of
having cloud backup that's the easiest
sale world sound back plays or carbonate
or something creating bucks a year and
now by the heartbeat . i'm not saying it
to me data recovery is an interesting
business when you're recovering data off
of a lot of sand device and you're able
to charge of reply twenty-five thirty
forty thousand dollars for that data
recovery 300 bucks for pulling off an
iOS device I do recognize the super fun
to use your brain
I mean and again I i'm not i'm not a
purist I'm a I'm a business owner and so
for me I i'm interested in making money
and so I think that i absolutely agree
with you the feeling of telling somebody
their data has been recovered
successfully and you restore the
pictures of their kids first walking
there's nothing better than that
that is I think all three of us would
agree about for with will agree on that
hundred ten percent that's an incredible
feeling
but but i think that is somewhat of an
anomaly compared to the times I get to
say you know your device's fixing it
works and that's just it's not as good
but it's just as profitable and it's
pretty again
but it and sometimes more profit let's
take a look at this your device is fixed
and it works so what was the repair
spring let's say it's cracked screen so
let's do a hard one let's do like an I
max screen repair the part is 191 249
recharge 604 the repair
let's do an iphone screen so i think
let's do one that works for the for the
course of this conversation
I scream part hundred bucks
oh you find your screen from you know
you know I was talking to a gentleman
outside is referring his own screens in
his head he's getting six screens for
nine dollars so let's let's
he's getting class was gonna write but
his rent videos on screen
I'm putting in the nine dollar iphone 6
screen for my retail customers who i'm
making happy and i'm charging him for 61
doing I'm choking I'm charging him 199
here you go
so now i have made a profit of a hundred
and ninety dollars but so now i'm going
to write the check out to my rent
i'm going to write the check out to the
marketing gonna write the check out to
all the employees and now the the
customer called back you know what he's
pissed because he just found out that he
could have gone to the apple store for
109 anyone's ninety dollars back for it
and his old screen back one because no
you're totally taking advantage of him
and so you know now you got a refund him
and know what is old screen on pay the
people to do that we can go to apple now
okay and then he's gonna tell everybody
you know that you guys are total scam
easy you know
now you've got to go you know respond on
yelp and do all the service stuff you're
talking about
that's a lot of work and right I don't
like this it's the same amount of work
in time is spending a couple hours
trying to recover data that you never
recover and can never charge the client
for any
no fix no fee is a huge terrible idea
did I cannot imagine not charging a
diagnostic if I'm putting work into
something you're here to give me some
money whether it when I get it or not
here's the deal with that here you know
the customary nothing but it's very
noble it is noble effort but I don't do
it to be Noble
I do it because I don't like having to
go respond to negative yelp reviews
which by the way I've never had
they're all five stars and and somebody
but don't we all know that's been so I
you know that you know the deal is that
with no fix no fee you know if if you if
you come to me probably not for data
recovery before just a general board
repair and units go something like this
like I'd like for you to replace the
charging port on my ipad air it's not
charging and and and I'm saying well
doesn't have a physical damage no but
you know it's not charging so obviously
the charge port and I'm like I really
think that you probably have oh you're
likely to have a deeper issue than that
well I just wanna just you know I can't
do what I want to pay you to just
replace the charging port ok you know so
I'll say alright I'm you know it's a for
service though you're asking me to get
out my soldering iron
I'll do it you know i'll replace your
charging 470 miles so i replaced the
charging port i give it back to replace
the charging port it still doesn't
charge
I told you that I thought that it was
going to have a deeper issue but you
know I did what she asked me to so then
how do you feel a you can feel like wow
you know just as pretty you know pretty
good so I she probably did a great job
and I'm an idiot because I should've
what's the number and I should have
known that was gonna have a deeper issue
and man I wish I'd never done that how
could I have been so stupid or are you
going to think
just probably messed up you know I mean
she's so busy with your summer house she
probably messed it up and now she's
charging me anyway because obviously
doesn't work she messed up so it if i
dunno fix know feat everybody's happy I
give it back to you but if the customer
come set comes to you and says fix my
charging port i say what's the problem
you say it's not charging it so you want
me to fix it because it's not charging
not the charging port that's more of a
customer communication thing that it is
anything else not about like I don't I
don't fix this I don't fix the part like
it's about it if I'm here to there's
this phrase i forgot whose I think that
Jim Collins going to sell the outcome
the outcome is I want my phone to charge
how do you make a charge and give a shit
how you make a charge like that shit
just make a charge maybe make when i
plug this thing the little light goes on
and i have more power and so I heard
from our customers and a lot of that is
communicating with them and twenty to
thirty percent of our customers think
they can repair devices and it's
important for us to educate them that
they are not that they are in our store
because they cannot write and so I think
it's really important that they
recognize that on the onset so that when
we're done they're like oh wow this
place is so great and they stop thinking
about that the same way that I feel
about my cpa my financial life of my
accounting i have no interest in
accounting i just want to see your P&L
on a balance sheet and I want to be able
to read it correctly and I want the the
background of all that to be done at his
place of business and I'm happy to spend
a nice check for yes we also do you know
I mean I don't do charge port for hire
you know i do solutions fxv solution so
be it
it's not never going to quote for a
charge for it would be to call you for
whether or not they can make it book
solutions you know but some of the time
you know it it's it's no effects it's my
job tho to just not take every repair
you know like like personal saying about
devices you know like if you bring me
your you know kind of like rusted out
Teddy Ruxpin you know it's just probably
not worth it for me to take the thing
apart and start you know putting the
board and the in the ultrasonic cleaner
and try to go after it you know
it was custom program with all my kids
favorite saying well imagine what I just
want the data back okay in that case
let's do business
Teddy Ruxpin daddy record that's right
exactly what me for 99 so it was so we
spent some time today we talked through
kind of technically how refurbishing
works how I mean we all kind of know how
retail repairs can you explain a little
bit of what your approaches the data
recovery
yeah okay so data recovery the niche
that i'm working in is specifically iOS
data recovery because no one not many
people are doing it and my approach to
it is is nothing special other than try
to make the phone work and by trying to
make the phone work try to get it to
have power display and touch and that's
all you need in order to be able to to
extract the data natively and this is
unique to iOS devices and maybe the
trend of the future but the way that the
encryption works it used to be up with
all the hard drives the way you fix the
hard drive is you can swap out the board
on the drive and then you get the
drivers men again in extreme situations
you pull the platters off the android
devices and with some other flash
devices you can take the flash chip off
the IC transplanted onto a known good
board and the work there by OS devices
are more
yes for an iOS device to to say you know
Open Sesame here is my data here are the
pictures you have to have three
different chips that are all integrally
married together to all be working in
concert in order to sort of release that
data so ideas of sort of desoldering
chips and putting them on a different
board you know really kind of don't work
you know because the data the data on
just the data chip is really
inaccessible without the companionship
information from the other chips so so
then it's sort of like it you know
what's the feasible way to get data and
the answer is to just get the board to
sort of work natively so we didn't
bustle sure we have a question
yeah do we have the microphone you guys
have the area would it not be easier to
get a working iphone 5 pull the three
chips off sticking on the working iphone
5 done
no no it doesn't wear well it's not easy
yeah i mean the challenges the underfill
around the banjee yeah right so that the
challenge with all of these sort of you
know modern iphones is this you know the
miracle of underfill which is fantastic
and also the worst stuff on earth you
know so so underhill it's sort of a
solution to this like tough problem
where if you have a board and ustick one
of those BGA chips on it you know the
BGA chip has a ton of you know really
fragile information on it that's now
blue to the board with solder balls and
if you're playing candy crush and you
can't get past level 25 and throw it
down then it's really easy to sort of
fracture those joints so how can we
solve that I know let's inject a sort of
black super glue underneath encapsulate
all those balls and we'll sort of cure
it like the dentist does to your teeth
with the filling and now you've got this
sort of rock-hard kind of you know
encapsulated chip that's fantastic for
candy crush damage that is horrible for
ya that chip stop working and we need to
work for we need to take it off without
damaging it transferred to another board
and also take off these other two chips
also without damaging and we really if
they can't tolerate just a little nick
you know so you have to scrape away and
remove this black superglue release the
chip from the solder balls and the black
superglue without damaging it so like
typically bad believes in good see him
in my business we've got to charging 40
bucks and give your phone back and say
sorry we can't fix
I don't know what I value is it is that
the solutions model works so let's let's
take an example of why it works
yes I don't charge for things that I
can't fix you leave happy you didn't pay
things that are you know relatively easy
to fix you guys watched me fix an ipad
mini digitizer i'm charging 6999 for
that job and it takes me about five
minutes and i'm able to do that when the
guys on ebay are literally charging 1999
for that exact same job because people
like this brand and the reputation that
I felt because I'm not charging you
missed up then let's go over here so
then there's sort of the kind of like
truly easy stuff so solutions model you
know my iphone wont charge could be a
youtube chip defect it could be a charge
Porter battery or something else i'm
going to build you a solution to that
and that solution will be more expensive
than either just the battery of the
charge for a loan so if you were to give
me a iphone 5s with blue screen damage
most likely it's très damage from
putting in the wrong screw and damaging
the traces I maybe my croissant ordering
traces that are the size of you know and
legs onto your phone and charging you
you know I charge a hundred and forty no
fix no fee for them however you may be
sending your phone that really just
requires a dfu mode restore you're still
paying a hundred and forty-four that you
know so the model Roberts
yeah so the model overall is successful
it works you know and it just you know
now i think that i think there is an
average i just think that there is also
a case when you can't fix it to say well
I spend an hour doing this for you it
didn't work and and and you agreed right
i don't like that but I mean you're
absolutely right and they all here all
day yes at the get-go
they all are human hopefulness says I
you absolutely deserve to be paid for
your time i'm gonna pay you fifty bucks
minimum mention regardless and I used to
do that sort of like I call it complex
diagnosis and the content that the
complex diagnosis an investigative
repair is a great rest while doing it
it gave her the microphone
yeah you can show you pictures sure yeah
i think its proper the communication
thing you said that rotations with your
customers upfront and then they're not
disappointed in the end what they really
supported 20 tell everybody prefers to
come over and I'm gonna have to put
different business models work for
different ways i guarantee you between
our business model and her business
model we all want John's business model
yeah it between that I would because
even notice I pic to my face I
definitely join your sounds really
stressful job John has like a brilliant
business model and it's totally
different than anything you and I would
come up with opening up opening retail
stores but i think there is all there's
a case to be made for no fix no fee if I
had if I was like if I didn't want to
spend a lot of a particular repair and
have the option between spending fifty
bucks for you maybe to fix your phone
and her 0 and and you had the same
reputation online we go over here you
would lose my business and you would
lose my repeat business if you if she
was able to repair the device which
mostly she was cuz she's kinda awesome
but there is definitely a case that you
could you could I think you can make a
case especially because you are an
expert in your field to say my x value
maybe not at fifty bucks maybe its value
25 bucks but that 25 bucks maybe it's a
50-quid I'm a $75 so hope but here's the
thing you know it the model doesn't work
if i'm going to say come on
oh yeah but it's like I will only charge
you for what I can fix
Oh Teddy Ruxpin achieving that here
because you're pushing away the customer
from believing in repair and i don't i
personally don't like that concept
she's not she's being selective about
the devices she wants to repair . being
selective as a repair shop though you
think that you'd want you can everything
you can know the board the board is
getting a little more adventurous lord
please forward that lead for that ipod
4th generation boards wait up to her
aboard
okay well ipod 4th generation that's
when you communicate with your customer
again and you make the sale in a
different way
upgrade them to an ipod 50 bipod critics
like Chris repairs mark that you still
not turning away the business you're
taking in the customer either or way
you're not telling on the phone no I
can't help you but you're disappointed
have you already know you're gonna
disappoint out i mean actually when I
United iron ok ok let me put it a better
way our diagnostic free our diagnostic
kits 4999 if you decide to get the
repair done then there's no cost for the
diagnostic fee just pay for the right
here that we saw that ipod that I
couldn't fix that 4999 would go into the
new ipod 5 that they were buying for me
and now I took the sale
I didn't turn away the customer and I
kept them did you know before you
accepted the repair that you there's no
way you're going to fix that device and
a Salesman that's kinda crickety haven't
else man i'm raising my two ND and he'll
tell you have like an 84 Council is he
not
nobody comes to you're going to create a
solution for them right that's why you
if I found out as a customer that if I
went to tattoo to just know you're going
to know something can't be fixed as if
you open it up and just try food so if i
went to just after and she told me
there's no way anyone
can repair this device and i know
because i have 67 five star reviews and
tell me that I can repair this device i
would i would trash you on social media
because you didn't give me the right
impression as a business owner you were
being well more like a nut don't know if
you can repair something until you
actually open it up and spend your time
on it you can't you just like I sent her
the thing is we have we are
yeah so what's next sunday behind you
like my sponsor hi I just wanted to
point out the fact that no fix no fee is
how much do you spend in to use then and
everybody else went on training for
employees or whether your education
iwasa every no fix no fee that comes in
she knows when she chooses that job she
goes I don't know that I don't know if I
can fix it yeah bring it in and those
hours that she spent working on it she
wasn't able to fix it
kluwer into the next one that comes in
and then she has it you know I said the
other day it's like episode of CSI where
she should have like the strings the pin
ah like you can see the way her my I
mean she's a different the way that
you've taught yourself and you teach
yourself every single thing that you've
done you use your resources and so every
every time like as business manager I
see her putting five hours into a job
and then going oh I its I know that
that's okay that time is well spent
because the next one that comes in she's
going to see some similar pattern ago I
got it and now she's gonna be the first
one who has that solved and we can start
bringing them in and then she makes a
video and then we have 50 of them so
sometimes it's not great for me but I
really value that that approach because
she's I think it's different for you
because you are a researcher by heart
you
I think that you have that business
model like you have to be very sensitive
and and having someone that that sort of
balances your curiosity as a researcher
and
and what the business and I call him to
death sometimes I'm like okay time of
dad walk away but I I think your
approach to doing no fix no fee of
course the customers love it and you're
furthering yourself in the business I
mean there's the generator so that I
used to do exactly what you're
describing complex diagnosis and i would
get you know like a batch of boards and
it would be like fix this one fix this
one dead
ok so now your yield customer you know
is going to be you know to you're
getting too good boards back and then
I'm charging you for fifty dollar fees
so now your overall package for two
boards as every business customers i
moved away from this so this would be
something that I would do for you know I
mean most of my customers are other
shops and you know and so you know
charge any of course they recognize that
they can't ask me to sit here and with a
whole afternoon and a schematic and try
to fix some hundred-dollar phone you
know and then its course you're gonna
pay for my time but people don't like it
you know so what's better for me is to
say i'm not going to dress that I'm not
gonna dress that too open-ended too
open-ended I'll fix this and I'll fix
this and so now I push those off the
table and I repair these two and then it
makes sense for you as business when the
key here is specialization fire
customers all the time but I went and I
think I think this underlies that you
know there's a there's a question
Special Agent portions of the market
you're addressing let's let's give Sonny
shot him
I run to retail stores that we offer no
fix no fee services and it worked out
really well you know how
just because you want to keep them as
happy as possible and they're gonna come
back regardless you know I mean I just
thought of something actually you do
computer repairs at all we do kind of
like Matt motherboard repair computer
repairs yes
so fix no fee on computer repairs
completed and iphones I'm we fix iphone
like pretty much before you just so did
you bring yeah I'd probably i'd probably
consider doing it on iOS devices and
things like that just because the
diagnosis happened so quickly but with a
computer it could take us a day to
diagnose something and so for me the not
have some sort of i like the customer
having skin in the game I don't know
what it is like I like the fact that
like I think it it it
I think it's a little bit of credibility
to our business and you can say that
that no fix no fee does as well like ah
I mean it I mean it because if i fix it
you're paying me but at the same time
but that's like seriously like they're
yeah well you were like not getting paid
you don't fix it
that's pretty but I think there's a not
like like a baby right he does water i
think that would be very curious to me
is like taking Sonny's business and mind
and tracking revenue over time versus
the diagnostic check or something like
that in seeing like if there is their
revenue stream and diagnostic checks
like I probably generate I don't know
thousand bucks a month and diagnostic
checks like that's thousand bucks a
month i didn't have I didn't have
otherwise but that's that's 12 bucks no
not pissed off
absolutely not they're not no no
definitely not . that's wholly disagree
we had it I've had chips
I've had customers that have walked in
and and paid a diagnostic check and and
at the end we tell them listen
this computer is not salvageable this is
not a good idea to repair this computer
go invest another computer come back and
we'll credit to $35 that you paid for
diagnostic check towards a transfer data
transfer that stuff makes sense and that
so that that about do I very rich
I mean I couldn't tell you the last time
I got pushed back on a diagnostic check
for someone like no no no but here's the
thing
let's go down to Las Vegas stand at the
roulette table and we're gonna watch
everybody place bets every single one of
them is hopeful when they put
and then let's talk to all the people
that didn't win and ask them so that's a
bad that's a bad analogy because because
they're not I'm not gambling with my
business they're trusting the most
credible repair shop in Miami Florida
not you it's that their devices either
fix it but they came to me they didn't
come to any of the other three thousand
vendors they could have gone to they
came to me because of my reputation and
my brand and and they trust that it's
not a crapshoot at the highest
probability of me getting this data back
is paying this guy 50 bucks and usually
were able to achieve and we're not will
explain why we'll get them will give
them a diagnostic report you know for so
so i think i think john is over here
saying you know all of this stress about
it that's enough perspective you're not
to be clear i get paid for every laptop
like so John late
tell me about your customer review
experience like he's way different
it's likely he's gonna tell us tell us
about your yahoo experience
John I know all i care about my you know
i have five primary customers i felt you
know most of five or seven years and I
mean I i know i can sound kind of harsh
towards customers and juggle but i i i i
treat my customers well Michael so
customers and you know that that's
that's the relationship I'll take care
about most
and also the recycling so I mean you
have to be nice to recycle recyclers you
know they have they have their choice of
who makes other stuff too so you you
know a lot of people make the mistake of
going to recyclers saying like well I'm
the customer there
selling stuff so i can make demands and
that's not that that's how it is you
have to
I you know I treat my customers i treat
my recyclers like the right by my house
first and that helps you build ongoing
relationships with them so but again
it's you know i have five relationships
over here five relationships over here
make sure that those receptor fact if I
had 10 clients that would be perfect
that would be that would be brilliant
now I again I repeat what i said in the
beginning question
yeah oh I'm curious to have a question
about about refurb because i don't want
to necessarily dwell on the netflix the
discussion after this reason why you
don't like saying business profit margin
is not don't steal your business
that's a good question i mean you can
the the business model with the two
sides like i mentioned is very modular
you could mix it up any way you want
personally I've just found that by
selling like 10 in a box and shipping
two or three boxes a day and eliminating
individual transactions you know I have
to package those up and 30 different
boxes i would be dealing with customer
service or three different machines you
know
yeah exactly so it it takes more of your
time and because you have less time
you're pumping out let's follow but it
can't be done and I know there are
people didn't you do what I do take the
skin the top 20% quality was off of what
we produce and sell it on amazon
premium for their you know their best
machines so maybe so how do you handle
cosmetic issues you're selling white
macbooks that scratch really easily
while the best customers are the ones
who will buy you know CD grade stuff so
i found i have some good customers who
for whatever reason don't mind the the
the damage stuff which is great because
you you produce so much that is not you
know great great day stuff you can solve
that anyone any second of the day but
you know great ccd you have to look for
those customers and it's important to
find those customers because there's
just so much volume of material no
question just go for it go for it
grab the microphone here exactly two
similar what you do no fee Norfolk's and
what that it's just like very small
percentage of my business but that
brings a lot of like a doing marketing
and instead of spending marketing with
their yeah but how much is your business
of like maybe mining list of five
percent no fees yet the very small
amount of people how much is your
percentage of time now but i don't know
i mean like you cannot fix carry yeah
one person your work is pro bono
secretly very low you know i mean it
sounds like oh we do no fix no fee which
sounds like we do know fix all the time
but we felt was really jumped and the
reason why is because I I when I hear
about a repair you need to tell me about
the history of the device and problem
and then i will match it to my
experience base and i will generate a
probability that it's XYZ and then i
will quote you a no fix no fee solution
and that probability is probably ninety
five percent that I know what the
problem is that i can fix it profitably
and if your description of the problem
does not match my sort of known kind of
profit Center problems that I've already
figured out then it goes into these
other two categories category one is oh
hell no and that that is like a
low-value device very open-ended
troubleshooting III it would not be
worth my time even if successful so that
is I can help you and then the middle
category is I may not be able to fix it
so let's say 5050 or whether or not he
can fix and I don't have any idea what I
like to see the problem because as I see
more and more of these problems that's
how I start to see patterns and that's
what sort of developed another solution
then what if you actually turns into a
ninety-five percent thing and that's
just sort of how I work I think that i'm
pretty sure that I'm the only one that
can repair iphone 6 long screw damage
and $OPERAND and 6 plus 1 by me I mean
mark and we worked that up for a long
time you know really really researching
that problem when we first identified it
on December 25th year ago and and now
you know there's still no one that
advertises that you know so we have
myself five phones before it's awful but
you're able to be super specialized
which is how you're right exactly and
you have to see where the usually don't
know at the beginning its most of time I
know that the beginning of something
that's possible or not like this you
know this place and all the touch
doesn't work at all you know hundred
percent of the time it's not going to be
some the IC or someone so wrapping up
let's get the last word the John and
then ivan well I was just saying you
know again this is a model with
considering you know if you haven't
figured out exactly what your business
model is going to be you know definitely
consider reversing instead of the sort
of having that your reactions you have
to do a customer-facing model because
you deserve all the nonsense that that
you know the biggest thing John's every
said you did it but you know i
$FULLPHONENUM say you know make your
work life simpler make twice as much
money and have a lot of free time for
other activities like yeah like all
right fit
I haven't so I think that business
models are very interesting to meet this
conversation is very interesting to me
and just like when i met john was like
eff this is completely different than
what i do is it very easy mathematical
ways to study business models they're
called financial models you can hire
someone for under $MONEY bucks now that
will build your financial model of your
business and you'll know a lot more
about what you do so when I build our
tech bar financial model it's a good
business at two stores
it's a great business at five stores
it's an unbelievable business at ten
stores and and the repair store model
scales much better than a passionate
expert I don't need passionate experts i
need level one trained technicians and I
can replicate them in mass and create a
scalable business that sells at a much
higher multiplier than a unique expert
business so all right and it's way
better just a very very briefly very
briefly that would be true
my business is certainly not a unique
expert you know but we occupy a niche
where you know i outsourced to multiple
really high-level people and it allows
us to serve the entire world you know
and and people ship the stuff from all
over the world so you know we don't have
to have multiple locations we outsource
to build a team it's a very diverse team
that communicates online we we're still
working here at the conference and it's
you know it's absolutely fantastic and
you guys pick up
ok so there you have it i think this has
been a dynamic discussion I I I
certainly learned a lot I think it's
really nice to see models and i can very
easily imagine the business that blend
in combination of all three business
models i don't think these are exclusive
at all get together
there you go
so I thank you guys very much round of
applause